tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15840053.post112543134122443853..comments2023-05-25T04:22:04.948-04:00Comments on Cincyevolution - Herman's Evolution, Science and Nature Blog: Keep Religion Out of Science, as Long as it is Western ReligionHerman Mayshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13173119664936272084noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15840053.post-1126293320211861002005-09-09T15:15:00.000-04:002005-09-09T15:15:00.000-04:00I think there is a big difference between Buddhism...<B>I think there is a big difference between Buddhism in Asia and the flavor of Buddhism adopted by many western acedemics. First of all the Dali Lama represents only one form of Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism. There is a pretty big diversity of Buddhist faiths out there and many, if not most, incorporate divine agents into their beliefs.<BR/><BR/>I have to say I've never meet a more superstious group of folks than Buddhists in China and Taiwan. A little of it has rubbed off on me! We have the Chinese character 'fu' in black and red taped on our sequencer right now for good luck!</B><BR/><BR/>The divine agents in Buddhism are often viewed as extensions of mind and the collective human or biosphere condition, though certainly in many cases these are adopted into the local supernatural views. For example, even though the Buddha said he was just a man, in many local Asian cultures he is still worshipped as a God. As I said, people are naturally given to supersition and magical thinking. If there is a religion, they will co-opt the mythic imagery. If not, they will make stuff up. Buddhism is fairly straightfoward, but it is always molded by the expectations and needs of the soceity in which it finds itself. But this isn't really central to the topic :)<BR/><BR/><BR/><B>"The fact is that in the modern science classroom,lecture hall and laboratory religous ideas are not discussed in the context of science."</B><BR/><BR/>Technically, meditation is not a religious idea, it is a practiced mental condition adopted by many as a part of their spiritual/religious practice. I would agree that if the Dalai Lama wanted to give a talk on Buddhist mythology or being compassionate, it certainly has no place at a scientific conference. But that isn't to say that because a practice has religious associations it cannot be scientifically assessed, which from your answer I would presume you agree. I think the appropriateness of a keynote speaker should be based on what the person has to say. I have no idea what the topic of Tenzin Gyuatso's speech is supposed to be. <BR/><BR/><B>Remember I said there is a place for discussions between religous leaders and scientists, I just don't feel this is one of those forums.</B><BR/><BR/>Yup, and I agreed with that. I was just pondering the different reasons why might one want to exclude the Dalai Lama. Some I would buy, others I would not.<BR/><BR/><B>My feeling is this is simply about scientists being fair and presenting a consistent message to the general public. The Dali Lama is a religous leader not a scientist, even though he may voice a respect for scientific inquiry in western circles, and thus he has no reason to speak at a scientific meeting. Now, if there was an adjunct workshop at this conference were the Dali Lama and other interested outside interests were invited then that would be fine by me.</B><BR/><BR/>I think the adjunt workshop thing is a good idea, and I mentioned before I can see limiting a conference to practicing scientists. But I don't know what the Dalai Lama was invited to speak about, and if his talk is just giving a speech, as opposed to say a paper or poster, I just don't see getting that worked up about it. If he gives a secular talk about the value of neuroscience research in understanding awareness and explaining the nature of meditative practices, I don't see it as "religion" being brought into a science conference.tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15840053.post-1126284537724952962005-09-09T12:48:00.000-04:002005-09-09T12:48:00.000-04:00"Suspersition and magical thinking exist within an..."<B>Suspersition and magical thinking exist within and outside of any specific religious context, and many Buddhists explicitly reject such ideas. Neither prayer nor meditation is mostly about "asking for stuff".</B>"<BR/><BR/>I think there is a big difference between Buddhism in Asia and the flavor of Buddhism adopted by many western acedemics. First of all the Dali Lama represents only one form of Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism. There is a pretty big diversity of Buddhist faiths out there and many, if not most, incorporate divine agents into their beliefs. <BR/><BR/>I have to say I've never meet a more superstious group of folks than Buddhists in China and Taiwan. A little of it has rubbed off on me! We have the Chinese character 'fu' in black and red taped on our sequencer right now for good luck!<BR/><BR/>I need to read Patrick French's book on Tibet. I heard an excellent interview with him where he said Tibetan Buddhism is presented one way to a western audience and another to Tibetans. The truth is it is just as socially conservative as the most orthodox Catholicism.<BR/><BR/>"<B>Scientists do not reject "any influence" of western religion in the science classroom. Taxonomy in the west began as a mapping of God's creation, for example. What is rejected is the attempt to give Abrahamic creation myths scientific standing, and equivalent scientific standing to evolution at that.</B>"<BR/><BR/>Well, acknowledging a historical influence of religion on the development of science is very different from what I'm talking about, as you apparently completely understand. The fact is that in the modern science classroom,lecture hall and laboratory religous ideas are not discussed in the context of science. At least that is what many prominent scientists say. However, this is exactly what is going on with the Dali Lama speaking at a neuroscience conference.<BR/><BR/>"<B>But in this case legitimate scientists have been looking at brain function during certain forms of Buddhist meditation and also Christian centering prayer. There are noticeable changes in the pattern of brain activity and response during meditation, and in responses of regular meditators.</B>"<BR/><BR/>Yes, and this is a valuable area of research. I don't however see how the mere existence studies merits religous leaders speaking at a scientific meeting. Remember I said there is a place for discussions between religous leaders and scientists, I just don't feel this is one of those forums.<BR/><BR/>"<B>Many of the people in one of the studies were associates of the Dalai Lama, who has a well known interest in and respect for science.</B>"<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't be surprised if the Dali Lama is playing a political game with western academics. Telling them exactly the sort of things they want to hear to keep his political cause in the spotlight, even if by now it is a hopelessly lost cause. Besides many religous leaders have a respect for science. This does not mean they should be invited as the keynote speaker at a scientific conference.<BR/><BR/>"<B>If the point of the Dalai Lama's talks was to give anti-scientific rhetoric of the kind the YEC's would give if invited to a conference on evolutionary biology, I would certainly agree with keeping him out. I would also understand if one wanted to keep a conference limited to those who have active research programs in neuroscience. The Daila Lama has been to other meetings with scientists outside of the professional meetings, so it isn't like he couldn't continue a dialogue in such venues. But if the *only* reason for keeping the Dalai Lama out is because he is a well-known Buddhist leader who is interested in the relationship of the mind and meditation, I don't see the justification.</B>"<BR/><BR/>My feeling is this is simply about scientists being fair and presenting a consistent message to the general public. The Dali Lama is a religous leader not a scientist, even though he may voice a respect for scientific inquiry in western circles, and thus he has no reason to speak at a scientific meeting. Now, if there was an adjunct workshop at this conference were the Dali Lama and other interested outside interests were invited then that would be fine by me.<BR/><BR/>HermHerman Mayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13173119664936272084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15840053.post-1126239010122524652005-09-09T00:10:00.000-04:002005-09-09T00:10:00.000-04:00"In my experience with Buddhism while in Taiwan I'...<B>"In my experience with Buddhism while in Taiwan I've found that Buddhist meditation and prayer often has a very similar purpose. People going to Buddhist temples "ask" for things in their prayers just like most Christians do."</B><BR/><BR/>But that is very superficial. People will always find some outlet of expression for hopes and desires. Suspersition and magical thinking exist within and outside of any specific religious context, and many Buddhists explicitly reject such ideas. Neither prayer nor meditation is mostly about "asking for stuff". <BR/><BR/><B>"My main point was that it is a little disengenuous for scientists on the one hand to reject any influence of western religion in the science classroom yet invite eastern religous leaders to speak at scientific conferences"</B><BR/><BR/>Scientists do not reject "any influence" of western religion in the science classroom. Taxonomy in the west began as a mapping of God's creation, for example. What is rejected is the attempt to give Abrahamic creation myths scientific standing, and equivalent scientific standing to evolution at that. YEC and ID deliberately distort the meaning and value of science in pursuit of an ideological agenda. But that doesn't make all religion hostile to or anathema to science.<BR/><BR/>I can also appreciate the concern over confusing the radical fringe of the parapsychology crowd with the more innovative and noncoventional cognitive scientists. But in this case legitimate scientists have been looking at brain function during certain forms of Buddhist meditation and also Christian centering prayer. There are noticeable changes in the pattern of brain activity and response during meditation, and in responses of regular meditators. Many of the people in one of the studies were associates of the Dalai Lama, who has a well known interest in and respect for science. So it isn't just a situation where a random spiritual leader is arbitrarily invited to speak.<BR/><BR/>If the point of the Dalai Lama's talks was to give anti-scientific rhetoric of the kind the YEC's would give if invited to a conference on evolutionary biology, I would certainly agree with keeping him out. I would also understand if one wanted to keep a conference limited to those who have active research programs in neuroscience. The Daila Lama has been to other meetings with scientists outside of the professional meetings, so it isn't like he couldn't continue a dialogue in such venues. But if the *only* reason for keeping the Dalai Lama out is because he is a well-known Buddhist leader who is interested in the relationship of the mind and meditation, I don't see the justification. :)tinythinkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17137637122776756669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15840053.post-1125512447446123702005-08-31T14:20:00.000-04:002005-08-31T14:20:00.000-04:00Thanks HRG for looking at my blog! Hopefully I'll ...Thanks HRG for looking at my blog! Hopefully I'll get a few interested readers here and there?<BR/><BR/>In my experience with Buddhism while in Taiwan I've found that Buddhist meditation and prayer often has a very similar purpose. People going to Buddhist temples "ask" for things in their prayers just like most Christians do. Students often go to temple to pray for good scores before a big exam for example. So some similarites are there.<BR/><BR/>But, your point is well taken, there are significant differences as well. My main point was that it is a little disengenuous for scientists on the one hand to reject any influence of western religion in the science classroom yet invite eastern religous leaders to speak at scientific conferences.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again for the comments! <BR/><BR/>HermHerman Mayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13173119664936272084noreply@blogger.com